Intellectual properties

Yiŋiya and Waŋgurru interviewed by Trevor after Robynne Quiggin’s Teaching from Country workshop, CDU, 18 June 2009.  Transcriptions and translation with additional comments by Waŋgurru and Yiŋiya. Editing and key words by Michael.

W - Waŋgurru
Y - Yiŋiya
T - Trevor
M - Michael

Key words: 
Yolŋu rom – Yolŋu law
Yothu – the children of the women of any clan. (These children will always be of a different clan) They are known as djuŋgaya, and have special caretaking responsibilities of the intellectual property of their mother’s group.
Yindi – the mether’s clan.
Gamunuŋgu – ancestral designs

Transcribed and translated by Waŋgurru and Yiŋiya, editing and clarifications by Michael.

Transcription of video by Waŋgurru and Yiŋiya.

Translation and comments by Yiŋiya and Waŋgurru.

Yuw when Michael first mentioned ŋunhi, this lady was coming up from Sydney. Ga talked about nhawi, intellectual properties. That sort of made me, bitjana gam,

So when Michael first mention this lady was coming up Sydney. To talk about this intellectual properties. That sort of made me, thinks about it hard and twice.

W: Nhä ŋurruŋu ŋayi Michaelyu yäkuyam?

Was it Michael who mentioned this to you the first time?

Y: Ei, yuw.

Yeah, yes.

W: Mm.

Oh yeah

Y: That maybe sort of, that’s something we need, to backup dhuwal ŋunhi dhäwu mala. Especially paintings mala
Rom wiripuny, ga gakal’ mala, ga gamunuŋgu. Yaka limurr dhu ga yän bawalam nhirrpan websitelil, without some sort of secure, security mala ya bitjan. Ga bala ŋayi dhuwali nhawin, yakan marŋgi, nhä dhuwali intellectual properties mala nhawi nhakun.

That maybe something we need, to protect our documents and all the stories. Especially the paintings. As well as the culture, songs and dances, and the paintings. We can’t just put it out on the website, without some sort security and protection you see. So then there is this, we don’t really know what these ‘intellectual properties’ are all about.

Should we keep going? Or

1:00

T) Yea I’ve got another question, What sort of things can, can Yolŋu recommend for western copyright law, so that Yolŋu rom and copyright and ownership can be acknowledged? Do you want to talk about that idea we talked about

Y: Bulu mak märr make it more clear, that question?

Could you rephrase that question a little please?

T) If,\ you were to I guess, you think some of the ideas inside Yolŋu law are, You know we looked at the western law and copyright.. How do you think the two can go together? Is it important that two should acknowledge each other or…

Y: Very, very, mirithirr yan, ee important they, they should work together ga understand each others’ …
where we talk about properties mala ŋunhi protectedpuy, nhakun, like say nhawi, I saw on the screen there, what’s being protected. Copyright protected, and what’s not really copyright protected.
are saw on the, what’s not really copyright protected listŋur.
Ga all the buŋgul mala, ga gakal’ mala and the stories just being told.
Ga nhä ŋunhi wiripuny mala, thinking nhe ga?

Yes, very, very, very much so, yeah, it important that they should recognize one another, and work together, so that
where we talk about all the protected properties, for instance, could see on the screen, what’s being copyright protected. 2:00 (Robynne had lists on her powerpoint presentation of things available for copyright protection) On the other column there were things that were not really copyright protected, and I saw in all the ceremonies, dances, the steps and ways of performing and people telling stories. What were the other ones, do you remember?

W: Nhawi muka waŋganydja,

One of them was,

T) I think language was another one.

W: Yuw waŋganydja dhäruk

Yes, language was one of them

Y: Yuw language, dhäruk, ga paintings mala. Unless something ŋayi ga ŋorra ŋula nhäŋur, wukirripuy. Yorr bäyŋun nhakun limurruŋ wukirripuy
There’s bäyŋu, no such writing yolŋuw.

Yeah, language, language, and paintings on bodies. Unless there’s something there through the means of writing. 3:00 But we don’t have any means of writing. There is nothing, no such thing as writing for Yolŋu

W: yuw

Yes

Only storyny ga ŋorra, ga gamunuŋguŋura yan, painting mala
Ga painting ŋunhi rumbalŋur ga ŋorra, that is story. Yorr dhiyal bala balanda sideŋur say that not really protected
Because it’s only on a body. But that is story written down ŋayi rumbalŋur.

The story is only there, all through paintings. There are paintings on the bodies as well, that is also a story. But over here, the white man’s law says that it’s not protected. Because the paintings are only on the body, (which means it can easily be washed off). But that is a story written on the body.

W: Munathaŋur walal dhu ŋunhi munatha buma yolŋuy, djäma? Yuw, ŋula nhaku lupthunaraw, yuw. Yuw, munatha dhu buma, sand sculpture for ceremonial purposes.

When they make a sand sculpture on the ground, senior Yolŋu do it, (that’s a written document, in a way.) Yeah, whatever it may be for, maybe a cleansing ceremony, yeah.
Yeah, to create a sand sculpture, sand sculpture for ceremonial purposes

T) So, say, if I was a judge and I’d ask you, can you tell me how does
copyright work in from Yolŋu side? How would you answer that question?

Y: Copyright works from yolŋu nhawi
It’s nhawiŋur ŋunhi sand sculpture ŋunhi munathaŋur? That’s, that’s a copyright nhawi, the design, patterns. Exact design mala, patterns mala, ga designs of paintings mala, gamunuŋgu mala.

4:00 Copyright works from yolŋu point of view. (there is  copyright law in yolŋu point of view, and it was handed down by the ancestors). The one from sand sculpture on the ground? (There is common law for all Yolŋu in Arnhemland, both Dhuwa and Yirritja) That is a copyright design, and patterns (from the same designs that painted on bodies) All the exact design, all the patterns, and design patterns, through the paintings.

T) Can you talk a bit about how ownership works, or custodianship?
You know when we’re talking about ŋäpaki’s (nonAboriginal) copyright?
There’s a lot about the individual creation, and then there’s lots discussed about… Well it’s not like that.

Y: Eh, it’s not like that. It’s not, when the paintings ga the stories ga paintings.
Especially gamunuŋgu mala, paintings are not only owned by one, waŋgany person. There’s a whole lot of clans that owns it, ga everyone in that clan, yothu-yindi, märi-gutharra, waku, ga even connecting clans mala through riŋgitjkurr, ceremonieskurr, they have certain power over looking after making it strong, yuw ga bitjan gam. You don’t use it. nhawi. Under mak.. When I was sitting here…

Yeah, yeah, there is nothing like individual creation (in our paintings and designs)
Especially the painting designs, are not only owned by one person (because these paintings and designs are not designed by us, but were handed down to groups of nations by the creation ancestors). 5:00
(One individual don’t own a design on the body he/she paints, because that painting belongs to the whole tribe which was handed down by the creators ever since time began)
Different clan groups have claims to another clan’s designs: A group of people known as Yothu (which is child, or baby) and Yindi (which is used for mother’s clan), Märi (mothers mother), gutharra (sister’s daughter’s child) waku (mother’s mother’s mother) and even the connecting clans through ceremonial linkages handed down by creation ancestors. They have certain authorities over looking after it.
Making it strong and it’s like this.
You don’t use it (by your individual authority.)  (Which is under the aboriginal cultural intellectual properties of all nations of this land)

W: Märrma muka rom, nhawiny ŋani, Dhuwa, Yirritja?

There are two (moieties), isn’t there, Dhuwa and Yirritja

Dhuwali nhakun. Ŋunhi ŋathil dhu djulkthun? Let that pass?

This, (intellectual property) of course. That can go first?  (noise of plane overhead)

Is that still going?

Is that (camera) still on the record mode?

Intellectual property dhuwal ŋunhi, ŋarra gan dhiŋkiŋ bitjarr dhiyal nhinan rra gan
Nhä ŋayi dhuwali Yolŋuŋurdja romŋur ga ŋorra. Dhäruk ŋayi nhä? Matha ŋayi dhuwali ‘intellectual properties’ ŋayi dhuwali mak balanya: Warrpam nhä mala ŋunhi rom ŋayi, waŋarryu mala gurru’kurrupar mana’manapanmin, nhakun ŋunhal east Arnhemlandŋur
munathay ŋuruŋi, wäŋay, gurrutu mala ŋunhi ga dha-manapanmirr, makes a big, one big dharpa nhakun, big foundation ŋayi ga ŋorra e’.

This intellectual property. As I was thinking to myself, while I was sitting here. What do we call that in Yolŋu terminology?  What is the word for it. Maybe the word ‘intellectual properties’ refers to all the Aboriginal constitutions of all estates, or nations of clans, (in Arnhemland especially) 6:00 which all the ancestral creators handed down during creation. Combined it all into one common law in east Arnhemland (especially). That ground, and the land, through the relations they have which binds them together. Makes one big tree in its own way, a foundation that is there you see. Robynne had presented a diagram of the ‘Intellectual Property Tree’ as she sees it in Australian law.

W: Yuw

Yes

Y: Ga ŋunhiliny ŋayi ga ŋorran romna, e’ intellectual propertyn nhakun, ŋunhilin ŋayi romna ga ŋorra. Whether ŋayi Dhuwa, or Yirritja, yolku, yolku bäpurruw, rom mala. Waŋganygurr yan dhu ga romgurr marrtji. Yaka guwal- budapthurr ga djaw’yurr wiripuŋuw.
Balanyan mala ŋayi ga ŋunhiliny nhakun copyrightna ŋorra balanyan yaka manaŋi nhokal djälyu, ga ŋunha bala buŋgul djaw’yurr, or rom djaw’yuyrr, or gamunuŋgu djaw’yurr,

So in it lies a common law, you see it is called ‘intellectual property’, in that common law. Whether it be Dhuwa moiety or a Yirritja Moiety, in all the clans, no matter who it belongs to (in East Arnhemland)
It must abide by that same common law.
Do not cross-over and steal someone else’s belongings. These are the law and rightful ownership of properties that exist in that Yolŋu common law. Do not take someone else’s belongings unlawfully at your own will, and take someone else’s songs and dances (totems), or unlawfully take ones (clan) painting designs and patterns.  

W: Still copyright ga ŋorra yolŋukurr gali’kurr ŋani?

In this way, copyright law exists in Aboriginal law, doesn’t it?

Wo wana bathiŋur, wana. Djaka nhuŋuwuy yän nhe mänŋu, nhä ŋayi ŋunhili waŋarryu mala nhuŋu gurrupar. Ŋunhili mala ŋayi ga ŋorra’ŋorra. Ga dhudiny ŋayi ŋunhiyi nhakun, balanyan nhakun intellectual propertyn ŋayi ga ŋorra mala.

Or designs and attachments of a sacred ceremonial dilly-bags.Use you own lengths and sizes, or whatever was created and handed down by the ancestral creators of you own homeland. That are there on that country (whatever your homeland has). (Subtle distinctions in the size and shape of tassels on bags designate the rights of different clan groups to different properties and connections) 7:00 The bottom line is that, custodianship over one another under one common law, where our intellectual property lies.

Ya bitjan. Warrpam’thu limurr ga nhäma

You see. We all have authority over one another and care for each other.

Ŋunhi nhe dhu waŋganydhu bäpurruy wrong djäma, mistake ŋayi dhu bitjan.
Ŋarra bathi dhuwal bala gurrupan nhawiku Parliament houselil, to the balanda Parliament house. Waŋgany tribe. Warrpam ŋunha bala wiripu clan mala walal dhu bitjan, yaka, yaka balaŋ nhe bitjana because law says so.
Ee.

If one particular clan does something wrong, makes a mistake. Let’s give this sacred dilly-bag to this parliamentarian, (because that person is our best friend). One particular tribe might do that. All the other surrounding clans will say, No, you shouldn’t have done that, because our law say so. Ok

W: Yolŋu law ŋani?

Aboriginal law isn’t it?

Y: Yolŋu law dhuwal, dhiyal within the intellectual propertyŋur, ga the law says, Yaka balaŋ nhe gurrupana bala.

This Aboriginal law, here within our intellectual property, and the copyright law says you shouldn’t have given that thing away (without everyone else’s agreement)

T) And if there’s a dispute about, you if someone says, you haven’t got, you shouldn’t be using that way. How do you work that out? How do you work out those issues?

Yalala, yalala walal dhu, it’s they work it out through, how that, there are decisions made by senior clan members mala.
From different clan members mala, ga in those clans there could a märi-wataŋu for this particular rom. Dhuwal rom, or a djuŋgaya from another tribeŋur for this romgu. Ga waku-wataŋu. They all makeup, all the different clans that link up with nhawi mala.

Later on, they must sort it out, it’s like this
(Senior clan members will look at how serious the matter is, in the common or customary law of the copyright act area). 8:00 From another clan there could be a family member who calls this clan his grand mothers’ mob, he also has authority. This is the law. Or the djuŋgaya who is the custodian or the caretaker for his mothers’ properties, who comes from another moiety and clan also has common rights and authority. The ‘waku-wataŋu’ who calls this clan his grandmother’s mother mob also has total authority for preserving the copyrights as well.

Romgurr ŋunha ŋayi djalkirikurr ŋayi ga ŋorra that make it strong, ga bitjan yaka dhu ŋayi move. Ŋuli, ŋuli nhe dhu ŋurrkam, ŋäthiliŋu rom balanya. Ŋuli nhe dhu bathi ŋurrkam, ga gurthalil ŋurrkam, daw’dawmaram, nhe dhu garay burakirr. Dharpum nhuna dhu. That’s the rom bitjan ga waŋa. Dhägir ŋayi ga ŋorra.

According to the laws of the copyrights of this land that has authority, by law must not be breached. If you unlawfully give (paintings, designs) away, according to what the old law says. If you unlawfully give away a sacred ceremonial dilly-bag, or burn it, or deliberately destroy it. By customary law you will be speared. That’s what the law (Yolŋu) says. There are punishment provisions.

Ŋuli nhe dhu goŋ-gurrupan bala, dhiyaŋ bala mak walal li ga galkan bunhamirr.
Galkan, ga, bäyŋu gi dhiyaŋ bala mirithi waŋi biyak, way, yaka nhe dhu bitjandhi. You can’t do that. Otherwise, next day ŋayi dhu bitjan, mak ŋayi dhu rakunyna.
Because of dhuwali mala rom mala.
But yuwalktja ŋayi, but ŋunhiny galkany cheating nhawi djäma ya balanya.
Yaka ŋunhi justice galka rom.

If you give away your sacred objects to someone else, these days people still exercise witch craft (as retribution. Witchcraft, and, people don’t speak publicly about it, and say you can’t do that. 9:00 (The witchcraft is still being practised even today) Otherwise if you breach that copyright law, the next day you’ll be dead because of these laws. But really the witchcraft practices are unjust, and cheating and unfair you see.  Witchcraft practices are not really the right way of justice.

T: Can I just ask one more question about the project and about how what we’ve discussed today relates to your powerpoints and what are some of the things that you think the project could have look at in terms of being djäga (care for) like CDU, and people involved who do look after that..

Bulu nhä, nhä muka?

What else was there, what was it?

W: You-tubeŋur eh?

The You-tube isn’t it?

T: Yes CDU’s website, you know all of it

Y: Yuw, yuw, yuw, mm

Yes yes yes

T: What, you know how do you want to make sure? What’s the proper ways that we should look after it, and if there’s, if any new things that I guess, that came up today in relation to this “Teaching from Country” project?

10:00

Y: I think there’s a bit of help there. Bili, when I was ŋäthildja when I was doing power points, I didn’t really have an understanding about where the control, control actually lies. Where I can actual have a copyright and have it protected.

Think there’s a bit of help there. Because at first, when I was doing power point presentations, there was no security and I didn’t really understand what copyright protection involves.   Where I can actual have a copyright and have it protected.

All my work protected you never know that somebody out there might take the painting of my dhapi ga djamarrkuli dhapi painting mala.

All my work copyright protected ( it should be recognized from both ways of intellectual properties, Yolŋu and Balanda) Someone could steal the photograph on my powerpoint of the boy painted for his dhapi ceremony.

Even facial nhawi designs ga bathi mala wana. But when this came along made me really think yaka dhuwali manymak ŋarra dhu nhawin start thinkna

Even the facial designs and the sacred ceremonial dilly-bags and the tassel attachments. 12:00 But when this came along, it made think seriously about, that it was ot good that I started to think about it.

But as we went through, ga. Put it this way long as ŋunhi dhu marrtji nhawin nhakun djämany, I want all my work mala protected. Copyright protected through the system that is more stronger.
Ga, through the university dhiyal nhakun, Yolŋu studiesŋur.

But as we went through it and it became clear to me that this was actually what I wanted, now I feel all my work can be protected.
Copyright protected legally through system that is strong and secure. Also through the university here of course, the Yolŋu studies

Ga widely dhiyal nhakun, when, before it goes into nhawiŋur websitelil mala.
That the whole of university can be a support in protecting all my copywork, nhawi djäma mala. Ga walal dhu ga nhakun gungam, nhawi ya bitjan, ŋayatham.

Also widely here, for example, before it all goes on the website (it should be recognized and copyright protected). That the whole of university must have some knowledge of how Yolŋu copyright works, this way they can look after and better protect my work. So that the university can be able to protect all my work.

W: Ŋayatham walal dhu

They can keep it (protected through copyrights through intellectual properties)

Y: They have knowledge through balanda systemgurr that I don’t. But I have knowledge through Yolŋu systemgurr. Ga one day napurr dhu get together, mak university, or organization ŋunhi napurr li ga djäma, ga yolŋu rom get together. Manymak this is how napurruŋ li ga romdja ŋorra dhiyak dapmaram napurr li ga. If I can, yan ŋarra dhu dhunupa bitjan waŋa. Napurr li bitjan gam, ‘Dhuwali rraku yakurr, I keep it under my belt, you don’t take it off me.’
Dhuwali rom, gamunuŋgu, I don’t give it to anybody. Balanda usegu, nhaku, nhaku mala

They have knowledge through white man system of protecting work that I don’t understand. But I have knowledge of how Aboriginal copyright system works. One day we’ll come to understand each others systems of intellectual properties and copyright protection through both systems may work together. This good because this how our law is kept we keep it protected.  If I can freely speak, it’s just make direct point. That is my sacrosanct, I guard it with my life, you don’t take it off me. This tradition and sacred paintings, I don’t give it to anybody. For any white man, or any other non indigenous sacred ceremonies

This walal li ga dilkurruwurr, old people say. Ga, if I let it go, I’m risking ŋarraku life, and I’m risking you life, ga ŋarraku family. If this bit of work gets ga ŋunha bala ŋayi dhu websiteŋurna somewheren put it up on, on carpetŋurna, ga T-shirtŋlil nhawilil I’m in a big trouble dhiyaldja, me and my family. So it’s not only. Even though ŋarra ga dhuwali presentation gurrupan. It doesn’t belong to just me, it belongs to the whole family, the whole clan

This is what my senior elders talk about keeping protected. But if I give it away, I would be risking my life, my life as well as my family’s life. If this bit of work gets out of hand without copyright protection, and it ends up on someone’s carpet or T-shirt.13:00 I’m in big trouble with the Yolŋu law, and my family because it belongs to all of my clan. See it’s not only mine. Even though I might be making the power point presentations, the copyright belongs to my clan.
It does not only belong to me, but my family and the whole clan as well ( the copyright really belongs to my senior elders)

That seventy year nhawi, nhä ŋunhi, dhäwu? Michael?

That seventy year (copyright extinguish) or whatever it is.  What was it Michael?

M: Yeah copyright extinguishes after seventy years, after somebody passes away.

Y: Yuw but there is rraku wäwa’mirriŋu ga yukuyuku’mirriŋu mala everybody else in that family that still has the same power nhakun ŋarra. And I want balanda system of copyright through. Nhä, intellectual propertieskurr to understand that, not only me, even though ŋarraku dhuwali paintings. There are same paintings dhuwal ga ŋorra’ŋorra warraŋul. This is only a, nhä, mak nhä, duplicate, or reflection, or is a carbon copy of what is really dhiyal ŋayi ga ŋarakaŋur ŋorra wäŋaŋur, what the ground holds. So that’s only a carbon copy.

Yes, but there are my older and younger brothers, and everyone else in the family are just as rightful owners as I am. I want the white man system of copyright through the intellectual properties understand and except it. They must understand that what we paint and put on the website, the copyright really belongs to the whole clan. There are paintings that are used for public purposes (which still need protection) This is only a carbon copy (if you like)14:00  but inside the intellectual properties of land and in the knowledge, wisdom, and minds of the senior tribal elders of this land are the original stories and paintings What the ground holds (whether it be on sand sculpture, or bark painting, or whatever. The copyright is in the ground as well). The artwork on bark, bodies, artifacts or whatever is just carbon copies of what is actually in the land.

But you can’t, you can’t take anything, nhä something out of the groundŋur.
Because, sure people say, nhawi balanda mala say you can’t really understand your nhawi copyright. Yolŋu paintings ga dhäwu mala because that’s too old.
Off course it is too old, it’s been here a long, long time, ever since time began, and it’s always been here.

Yolŋu law existed ever since time began. The copyright laws were handed down once and for all.

You bring you balanda law here, and try to ignore my copyrights ga nhawi. Ya balanya.

You bring your copyright laws and ignore my intellectual properties and copyright laws, because it is very old. You see.

W: Yow yuwalk warray dhuwaliny.

Of course that’s true

Y to M: So you’re here looking at the stop watch?

15:00

M: the longer you go on the more work it is for me to transcribe!

Yow that’s what I’m saying.

Thankyou very much, have a sandwich.

Y: Common rom ŋayi that waŋgany ga look after. How a warraw’, or how a ceremony is conducted nhawiŋur mala
Same way ŋayi ga, same, waŋganydhu commondhu, common romdhu, it’s under same common romŋur.

There is a common law that look after all Aboriginal copyright mala.
How ceremonies, both public and sacred abide by
All the ceremonies operate under same common intellectual properties law.

M: Whether you’re Dhuwa or Yirritja.

Y: Whether you’re Dhuwa or Yirritja, or dhuwal bala nhe bäpurru, Or you’re another tribe, or you’re another tribe, you’re another tribe, you’re another tribe. Work-tja ŋayi dhu ga under same common law.

Whether you Dhuwa, or you’re Yirritja, or whether you come from this clan, or you come from this other clan.  All law work under same common law.

M: Yes.

Y: Through linkage of  riŋgitjkurr mala, ga through djalkirikurr. Yothu-yindi, märi-gutharra, waku, or yapa nhe ga ŋorra ŋunhili wäŋaŋur. Every body’s got power over waŋgany clan. Ga same over here, there’s waŋgany clan dhuwal ga nhina, but everybody has power, authority ŋunhili nhawi.

Through linkages of songs and dances, and through culture. Mother and child relationship through kinship, grandmother, grandchild relationship through kinship between people and relationship between land, whichever way you might be related.
Every other clan over there has responsibility over on another. 16:00 Same as over here, there’s one clan over here, but all the other clan has responsibility over it.

M: Because they might be waku, or ŋändi, or märi, or gutharra.

Because they might be related as grandmothers’ mother’s mob, as mother’s mob, or a grandmother, grandchild relationship.

Y: Mm, yuw and through riŋgitjkurr mala
All the people are related, Yothu Yindi, Märi Gutharra, ga land, and the manikay mala are all related.  Yothu Yindi, Märi Gutharra, Waku, Yapa.

Yes and through all the ceremonial linkages
Mother and child relationship, grand mother and grand child relationship, mother’s mothers’ mother, and mothers’ mother’s mother’s mother.

Ya balanya, ma

You see, ok that’s all.